Launch loops
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Ian Woollard
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« Reply #60 on: January 16, 2008, 08:16:18 AM »

You could.

Lofstrom chose to do it that way because the low level sheath needs to be thicker to carry the full atmospheric pressure, and he says this makes it more awkward to also carry payloads along it.
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Ian Woollard
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« Reply #61 on: January 16, 2008, 09:03:47 AM »

It might also allow us to increase velocity much further, which is not that useful for the launch loop, but could come in very handy for energy storage. A circular, rotating iron loop at velocities beyond 7 km/s can store more energy per kg than any other non-nuclear device. I see this as a potential stepping stone technology that can solve most of the tough problems on a smaller and simpler scale and pay for itself before launching is even considered.

Andreas

Well, the g-force on the rotor in the deflection coils goes as the square root of the velocity (centripetal force). As the speeds rise, for any give acceleration in the deflection coils, the size of the ring needs to increase.

So the limit on the acceleration is the deflection coils, which in turn is limited by how intense the magnetic field can be made, which is limited to about 1-10 Tesla (ish) (~1 T is permanent magnets, ~10 T is superconducting magnets which may be expensive to run, or very heavily cooled electromagnets, but they're of little use here).

Net upshot is that a storage ring needs to be pretty big to get decent velocities/energy storage; km scale.

But you can demonstrate the basic technology at meter scale; but just not the high velocities.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2008, 02:24:02 PM by Ian Woollard » Logged
windemut
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« Reply #62 on: January 16, 2008, 01:54:06 PM »

Well, the g-force on the rotor in the deflection coils goes as the square root of the velocity (centripetal force). As the speeds rise, for any give acceleration in the deflection coils, the size of the ring needs to increase.
Alas, you are right. I had erroneously assumed the g-force to go linearly with velocity. As it is, any increase in energy capacity will be matched by a corresponding increase in mass, making the system no better at storing energy than a tank of gasoline, probably much worse.

Andreas
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Ian Woollard
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« Reply #63 on: January 16, 2008, 02:36:34 PM »

Oops that should be square of the velocity, but the general argument is still correct.

It's a bit of a shame that the energy density isn't higher,  it doesn't even seem to compete with batteries, never mind gasoline at laptop sizes for example.

Still, for stationary use it might work; and as you scale the radius up it becomes much better I think.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2008, 10:32:49 AM by Ian Woollard » Logged
Ian Woollard
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« Reply #64 on: January 20, 2008, 10:38:12 AM »

If I've done my maths right, the radius goes up by the square of the velocity (acc = v^2/r, rearrange r = v^2/acc)

But the energy density per unit mass goes up by the square of the velocity too (0.5 m v^2)

So the total energy in the ring actually goes up with the fourth power of velocity and the mass goes up on a square law (the mass per unit circumference is constant).
« Last Edit: January 20, 2008, 10:41:17 AM by Ian Woollard » Logged
hcm1955
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« Reply #65 on: February 03, 2008, 06:27:55 PM »

This has probably all ready been discussed, but the next step after Launch Loops are orbital rings. This becomes a real possibility considering NASA plan's to establish a lunar base. 

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orbital_ring

bert



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Ian Woollard
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« Reply #66 on: February 03, 2008, 07:04:18 PM »

I'm not sure that they're practical though. The problem with orbital rings is that they're in orbit, so they're subject to space junk and micrometeorites.

Launch loops are low enough down in the atmosphere that while space junk and meteorites could hit one, the debris has only got one chance to do so, whereas with orbital rings it can just keep going around until it gets lucky.
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windemut
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« Reply #67 on: February 06, 2008, 12:02:33 PM »

If I've done my maths right, the radius goes up by the square of the velocity (acc = v^2/r, rearrange r = v^2/acc)

But the energy density per unit mass goes up by the square of the velocity too (0.5 m v^2)

So the total energy in the ring actually goes up with the fourth power of velocity and the mass goes up on a square law (the mass per unit circumference is constant).
Yes, I think that is right, and it must be what I was originally thinking, before you convinced me otherwise :-) As you increase the size of the device leaving the rotor thickness unchanged, rotor mass goes up linearly. So does energy density, because a larger radius permits higher velocity using the same magnets. Thus, overall energy storage density increases indefinitely with size, something which cannot be matched by any other technology. Thus, there must be a critical size at which a storage ring becomes economical for storing power. If that size is manageable, research funds should be forthcoming. The  resurgence of interest in renewable energy makes a unique means of large-scale energy storage very attractive.

Andreas
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windemut
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« Reply #68 on: February 06, 2008, 12:22:11 PM »

I'm not sure that they're practical though. The problem with orbital rings is that they're in orbit, so they're subject to space junk and micrometeorites.

Launch loops are low enough down in the atmosphere that while space junk and meteorites could hit one, the debris has only got one chance to do so, whereas with orbital rings it can just keep going around until it gets lucky.
An orbital ring would probably not be too much affected by meteorites, as only rare, large ones would be able to alter projectile trajectories beyond the control system's ability to compensate. Even large impacts would only knock out one projectile, which could potentially be tolerated. The orbital ring is very much more massive than any orbiting debris, and with time it would probably clean up LEO space very effectively.

The problem with the orbital ring is that it is much too massive for what it does. Mass fraction (payload/system) is an important consideration in any launch system, and it rules out the orbital ring utterly and completely, in my view.

Andreas
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Ian Woollard
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« Reply #69 on: February 06, 2008, 12:43:44 PM »

An orbital ring would probably not be too much affected by meteorites, as only rare, large ones would be able to alter projectile trajectories beyond the control system's ability to compensate. Even large impacts would only knock out one projectile, which could potentially be tolerated.

Mmm. The problem is, that when something gets hit by something in orbit, essentially both the hitter and the hittee both explode, and generate a large shower of fragments that are both more or less in the original orbits, plus or minus some delta-v due to the explosion.

So the fragments of the projectile will tend to continue forward and, while many will reenter, many will not, and are likely to impact the spokes, or after the orbital planes have been perturbed by standard orbital mechanics, will impact the orbital ring from a different direction at very high speed causing a fresh shower.

Basically, you've got a runaway space debris situation from the orbital ring itself back onto itself, Kessler syndrome.
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windemut
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« Reply #70 on: February 06, 2008, 02:50:32 PM »

Mmm. The problem is, that when something gets hit by something in orbit, essentially both the hitter and the hittee both explode, and generate a large shower of fragments that are both more or less in the original orbits, plus or minus some delta-v due to the explosion.
True, but that only applies to the large pieces. Small meteorites will just make a little crater on the projectile and should cause no problem. The large ones will have to be dealt with some other way, then, as is the case for the regular space elevator.

That said, though, I agree that it is very possible that the orbital ring is unstable in the Kessler sense, i.e. every collision produces more than one new collision from fragments and the whole thing will spontaneously disassemble into the more traditional variant of ring found around planets.

Andreas
« Last Edit: February 06, 2008, 02:55:07 PM by windemut » Logged
Ian Woollard
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« Reply #71 on: February 06, 2008, 05:32:10 PM »

I think 100% of spacecraft in a decaying orbit are going to perform a near miss or worse with an orbital ring- as the apogee decays, it's certain to go through an altitude where the ring is, and because an orbital ring encircles the Earth, it's always going to be there. It seems to be worse than the Space Elevator in that regard.

And its worse the heavier the reentering object is- heavy objects have a higher ballistic coefficient, and hence lose less altitude per orbit, and hence are more likely to strike the ring.
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